Welcome to the Mindset and Manifesting Podcast with your host, Lynna K Teer. In this episode, Lynna has the honor of interviewing a truly inspiring guest, Debora Eden Tull. Debora is the visionary founder of Mindful Living Revolution, a transformative platform that advocates for the integration of compassionate awareness into every aspect of our lives.
As an engaged dharma teacher, spiritual activist, author, and sustainability educator, Debora brings a wealth of wisdom and insight to the conversation. She has dedicated her life to bridging personal and collective awakening, particularly in the face of global change. With a deep understanding of mindfulness and its power to reshape our mindset and manifest positive change, Debora shares her unique perspectives on awakening and awareness.
During this captivating interview, Lynna and Debora delve into the realms of spiritual activism, sustainability, and the unity of all beings. They explore how we can bring compassionate awareness into our daily lives, fostering personal growth while creating a more harmonious and sustainable world.
Debora's teachings are infused with post-patriarchal thought and practices, empowering individuals to tap into their innate unity with the interconnected web of life. With her lived knowledge and experience, she guides us toward a deeper understanding of our role in the grand tapestry of existence.
Join Lynna K Teer as she engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Debora Eden Tull on the Mindset and Manifesting Podcast. Prepare to be inspired by Debora's wisdom as she shares practical strategies for integrating mindfulness, awakening, and awareness into our lives. Together, Lynna and Debora shed light on the power of compassionate action and offer guidance on how we can contribute to a more awakened and sustainable world.
Don't miss this incredible opportunity to learn from two visionary leaders on the Mindset and Manifesting Podcast. Tune in now and embark on a transformative journey as Lynna K Teer and special guest, Debora Eden Tull, explore the interplay of mindfulness, awakening, and the collective well-being of our planet.
To get in contact with Deborah, check out her website.
Hello and welcome to the mindset and manifesting Podcast. Today I'm very excited. I have a special guest. Her name is Deborah Eden tall, she goes by Eden. And I have just finished her book titled luminous darkness. And for those of you guys who are familiar with this podcast with my YouTube channel, etc, her this book really resonated with me because I definitely had to, to face my own darkness. So again, this book really resonated with me. So, Eden, she's, if I can call her Eden, she is a Zen meditation and Dharma teacher. She is an author, a public speaker, and a sustainability educator. And need to you're gonna have to maybe explain what that is. As we go along. Yeah, because I'm not. Yeah, I'd like to know more about that. And she is also the author of relational mindfulness, and also the natural kitchen. So um, Eden Yeah, thank you for the one. Yeah. I was like, well, because it's because I'm so like, every like. Every time I've looked at the book of a riotous is Deborah E to Tulsa. Now, if if they get Deborah now I'm like, oh, Eden. So I have to remember, I could just go eat, and I'm alright. So would you like to tell us a little bit more about yourself. And as I mentioned, I don't, I don't script my videos, my audience knows that. So I think we can have you kind of, you know, tell a bit more about yourself, like the process of this book, etc. And then we'll just, we'll just see how things flow and kind of go from there. Sure. Well, I'm here in the mountains of western North Carolina on a rainy day with a cup of tea, grateful to have an unscripted conversation, always prefer unscripted conversations. And as the title of my book is luminous darkness and engage Buddhist approach to embracing the unknown, it touches many, many juicy and nourishing topics, about darkness, but one of them is darkness in relationship and the invitation to relax into empty, open, unscripted, unknown space together. In order to allow for genuine connection to arise for true intimacy to arise. It always arises from spaciousness, not when we're filling the space with a presentation or what should I say next, or our thoughts and projections. So always happy to have an unscripted conversation. And maybe I'll start by just touching the question you suggested around explaining what is sustainability educator is? For me, nature has always been my greatest teacher. And I believe this is so for all of us. And my path in Buddhism and my current embodiment of practice, which weaves the wisdom of numerous spiritual traditions beyond Buddhism, so many of us speak different languages pointing to the same intention to heal the myth of separation. My path really, really has been guided by the teachings of the natural world the whole time, and also a recognition that how we treat ourselves and how we treat our world are one in the same and this includes how we treat one another, how we treat the resources we use every single day, how we treat Mother Earth because through the delusion or collective delusions that have been passed down through capitalism, individualism, disconnect from the natural world, colonialism, I could go on. There's such a sense of the natural world is for us to use and even people on the spiritual path often forget to include their embodiment of how they treat life, to include that in their everyday expression through care for this earth. So I'll I'll just say that much about it. But I've always been both of a spiritual mentor and teacher and a sustainability educator. Really finding joy and helping people to make that connection. Yeah. Wow, that's interesting. You know, as you were talking, I was reminded, you know, when I was when I was younger, I spent a lot of time out doors, probably all the way up through, I would say middle school. And I grew up on a dairy farm. So I was always outdoors, and I, I love being outdoors. And then of course, we grow up, right, some of us still stay connected to nature. And some of us don't, I did not, especially dealing with anxiety and depression. I mean, I dealt with it as a child too. But as I got older, it became really difficult. Being around other people, things like that. So I started staying indoors more. And it's just been recently where I've realized I have to go outside. Now, I still don't do it as often as I'd like. But I have moments where I physically have to go outside to ground myself. That's kind of all new to me. But I'm like, but I have more. I've replaced all but like one, one or two artificial plants in my house with all live plants and stuff. Now I was so touched to hear that you're describing your own path, as if I can use this phrase, a wounded healer and your own path of meeting to become more insular at some point, because of anxieties and fears. And then noticing now wow, I need to go out and connect with nature to ground in what is real and vibrantly alive. And I believe we all do. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah, well, there's not a lot of people realize this. But there's so so much knowledge in nature, right? The plants, the trees, the animals, everything in nature. Care, light carries knowledge. So whether we realize it on a physical level or not just the energetic patterns in nature awakens thinks within our DNA. Yeah. So nature, yeah, it's really important. So I'm glad. So now I know what a sustainability educator is. That's so interesting, because I know my path. And connecting to nature is, is really just is really just starting for me. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, and I would just add, following up on what you just shared, one of the themes in the book is a real need for us in our spiritual journeys to move beyond a collective habit of anthropocentrism. And this way, that in today's modern world, where we are more generally disconnected from the elements, and where we spend a lot more time in daylight, or with artificial lights and less time, under the night sky than our ancestors did, and connecting with the spirit of the night. There's a way that we become way too engrossed in the made up human world, the artificial world, then the interconnected world of nature, which reminds us that interconnection is an absolute truth. So I point to this in the book and I'm happy we're touching on it at the start of our conversation it's one of the reasons I find darkness an important teacher for us. Yeah, yeah. And you know what I mean, the the darkness and there's even right now in the world with with everything going on. A lot of people fear like a lot of people fear the darkness right? And I'm gonna I'm gonna bring up this the Senator that I highlighted in the book when I started reading it, but the now I realize that the darkness I like it has a purpose because it exposes the it exposes the light. So even everything going on in the world right now. All of the darkness and things like that when you're if and I know there are a lot of people who are in fear and things right now, but it's really exposing the light right as we go through this awakening process, individually. You know, as a as one consciousness right as Mother Earth as we go through this awakening process and then as the As we're ascending, right as Mother Earth is ascending, As we ascend individually, the all of the darkness is, is just exposing that light. So there's really, I've realized now I didn't know this growing up, but it's in the darkness, there's really nothing to fear. So real quick, if you don't mind, I want to read the sentence that I highlighted because it really resonated with me. It's on page four of your book, luminous darkness. And so this is actually the introduction. But it says that is it is time to commit to turning around, rather than away from darkness and to learn to proceed with the heart beyond on unconscious bias, and hierarchical perception. And the reason this resonated so much with me is because like, I really, really had to face the darkness within myself, had I never done that. And I now know, it was part of my journey. But had I never done that, right? Had I kept running from it, and being fearful of it. I would not be where I am today, it was an essential part of my, of my journey. And now I realized that the darkness is is a teacher, and there's really nothing to fear. So that's why that sentence really resonated with me. Beautiful. And yeah, just to clarify, it's, it's that when we turn towards rather than away from darkness, and the book talks a lot about this compassionate motion of learning to turn towards that which makes us uncomfortable that which we label as dark, the shadows that we judge unwanted without noticing that actually, they're sacred messengers. And that there's in the motion of with compassion, I'm not talking about turning towards when we're an absolute, locked in terror, Our deepest fear but with compassion, turning towards what we're labeling dark, and practicing just being with it, a phrase I use in the book, befriending the night, our inner light is affirmed, revealed, we recognize more and more and more that it is always with us. And we also recognize that dark and light work in sacred partnership as a dynamic interplay in us in our healing on this planet earth, that we don't need to hold light and superior to dark, that darkness itself is a teacher, is another expression of the sacred that all of it is everything. So there are many spiritual pathways which point to, let's cut this out. So we can try to get to the light, let's get rid of these shadows so we can try to transcend let's, once we're done with all that stuff, then we will have purified ourselves and I'm suggesting something else, a radical path to wholeness that has to do with recognizing who and what we really are as a compassionate awareness that embraces everything. And that in bringing anything into that embrace, it's healed. Let's see. So, yeah, so yeah, I'm glad you said that about the, the many different spiritual pathways because if you could, I'd like for you to talk a little bit about Dharma since you're a Dharma teacher. And the reason is, so I, I understand right there again, like you said, there are many different spiritual pathways. But there was this in in many, many, many of those teachings, and again, the different pathways there really is an essential like a commonality in many of them, I don't know much about I want to make sure she sharp shamanism, yeah. Shamanism. I was like I wanted to make sure I pronounced that correctly. Done Dharma teachings, things like that. I I'm just starting to study different types of teachings. And when I say different, I mean, it's my goal to to study as many as possible. And again, kind of see where the commonalities are and the differences etc. Because I think it's important to not just necessarily stick to one Teaching, right? Because I think we can we can learn from many different teachings. And not only that, but if we if something comes into our awareness, then there's a reason for that, because I firmly believe that if, when we become aware of something, different teachings, things like that, then it's either meant to resonate with that, in that moment of time, or it's a seed, there's something within that teaching that is meant for us at some point on our journey. Do you mind talking a little bit about Dharma and, and, and the teachings and stuff that you do? Well, first, I'd like to just say something, in response to what you just shared with just was rich, but just recognizing that, when we really listen to the call within that says, I know it is my birthright to experience and know my deep belonging, here belonging to myself to this world to the earth. When we really follow the call to awaken, which I talked about as remembering the already awakened state, we access a deeply sincere, courageous energy within. And each and every one of us is very unique. And so there were many unique pathways from meditation from Buddhism, to Christianity and Hinduism, to animism and conscious movement as pathways to healing we could go on and on and on. And I to really have always appreciated the intersections, the shared truths, which so many brilliant guides throughout history have spoken to in their own language. I grew up in a mixed Jewish Christian household with a father who as a contemplative Christian really made available to us all kinds of teachings ranging from Krishna Murthy, and Lao Tzu to St. Francis. And so I just always appreciated as you were pointing to the connection points, rather than my religion in this separate category, and you over there. There's a great tear in the fabric of human relationship today. And so more and more capacity to recognize our connecting points is really important. For me, there was many life experiences that led me to recognizing sitting meditation, and specifically Zen Buddhist meditation as a steadfast guide, a life raft I had been looking for a path to coming home to this deep, steady sense of belonging, and recognition of who and what I was beyond sort of the stories in my head and the identities that have been passed down maybe through families, society, trauma, etc. And so I do believe it's useful to be willing to receive the medicine from the different traditions that one gets exposed to that call one's heart. And I also feel like there can be a lot of use to having a period of time. For some people, it's a lifetime, just focused on just concentrating on one pathway, because the human mind and the ego can make things really complex. So a metaphor I'll use is, if we want to find water to drink, it's not so useful to dig a little hole here, and then a little hole over there, and then a little hole over there. What's useful if we want to find waters to stand in one place, and start digging and dig deep. So that's it. And that's a way of saying, I spend many years digging deep in the path of Zen Buddhism, and through that digging, and as my own embodiment became more and more full. Certainly the teachings of animism, which points to shamanic ways of being came strongly to me just because both of some teachers that came into my life and because always as a young person, child I felt a new, a deep connection with a more than human world. And again, I'll go back to what I said earlier, I think we can get confused. When we think of spiritual practice just as a path of psychological healing, for instance, emotional healing, just as a path for healing our relationship with the human realm. It's that and much, much, much more. We belong to the human and the more than human realm, we have allies and supports in both realm, we live in service to both realms. So there's not too much I want to say about that. But I was always drawn to the simplicity and depth of Zen and have many ways today that that integrates into my life. Yeah, I'll pause there. Oh, that's interesting. I find it interesting how certain teachings resonate with and you know, with different teachings resonate with different people on such a deep level. For me, it's for me, it's scripture. Now, after I found neville goddard teachings, it just resonated so deeply. And now the there's a lot of mystical stuff happening and sibilant symbolism that kind of just naturally unveiling itself. So but again, I am like, I, I'm fascinated by other teachings and stuff as well. But right now, I'm kind of on the like, just, you know, allowing the symbolism to come through with scripture stuff is, isn't as incredible. So let's, um, so and I know that you talked a lot about your path. In your book, again, which yah just wrote, it really resonated with me because not a lot of people talk about, they don't talk about the darkness. A lot of people talk about the lack. You got it? Yeah, exactly. So you mentioned earlier that portion of the book that you that you would touch on show. Can you touch on a couple, you know, a few more things within the work? Yeah, well, first, you just mentioned symbolism. So let's talk about the symbolism of darkness. Because really impact passionate about multi dimensionality, and we have a very limited definition of darkness. In the modern world, even defined in the Merriam Webster Dictionary as the absence of light. In the book, I'm talking about the medicine and innate value. Yeah, physical darkness of metaphoric and symbolic darkness. I have a chapter that talks about shadow and what we think of as emotional darkness. But really, let's look at what darkness symbolizes for us in the domain of daylight, and when we can see when we're walking along a path where everything is clearly marked, we can easily go to sleep and through the ways we actively use our eyes, we also actively use our judging and discriminating minds. We noticed the differences between this and that when we close our eyes even picture, closing one's eyes. how some of the other senses in our body open up. Imagine that you are walking through a dense ticketed forest without brightly lit path, you're walking through more of a sense of the unknown, the unfamiliar, the mystery. And, instead of meeting the unknown with fear, we can learn both to open our hearts to meeting the unknown, with curiosity and respect and reverence and also to opening up the field of receptivity in our body mind, which allows us to sense and feel and listen much more deeply than when we're locked in the mind of labeling and discrimination. Darkness represents all possibility, it is the field of all possibility beyond that which appears to be fixed and set in stone. It represents the mystery from which we all came into which we will all return. It also represents the yen, restorative, still slow, receptive aspects of nature and consciousness. Think of the dark stillness of the embryo resting in the womb for nine In months, or the seed resting in the soil and caterpillar in the cocoon, we tend to discount the slow the dark, be uninformed and really tend to emphasize and want to get to that which we can label and rationally understand. And that only represents one half of the human experience and one half of nature. We love sunlight, we love summertime, but to also equally recognize the sacred in the fallow of winter. And in the metaphorical winters we experience inside ourselves, when we stop judging one is higher than the other and open ourselves up to what I speak of in the book as learning to see with the heart rather than this binary judgment. We open up to recognizing the sacred in all of life, the full spectrum, the value in the full spectrum from the dark to the light, rather than pushing away one in order to get to the other and for me this This does open up a profound path to wholeness through unconditional love rather than Yeah, all love myself, I love you when I'm on that light side. Just it's it's clear, same. So there's, there's a lot I could say about that. But I wanted to speak to the symbolism of it for a moment. Yeah, it's so beautiful, I can listen to you speak forever, your voices. Like it's so calming, and it just listening to you share that is like it just, it's so beautiful. is so beautiful. It was like this light, just kind of wash it over me. I love that. And you know, it's interesting, because you brought up the, you know, the the, what you said something about winter, but, and it got me thinking, which is why I can't remember the like, exactly, word for word what you've said, but as you were saying, and I was thinking to myself, you know, I I look, I used to not like the winter months, right? Because I wasn't able to go out and do as much and it and the winter months always kind of depressed me. I actually look forward to winter now. I mean, I love summer too, but I look forward to the winter because then I know you know what I don't have, I'm not going to be out running around as much in my car, doing as many things outside of the home. And it gives me more of a chance to I tend to meditate a lot more in the winter. I tend to I just I don't look at it as a bad thing anymore. I don't get depressed in the winter anymore. I just really like I just feel like cozy and again not depressed at all. It gives me a chance to kind of just sit with myself more often. And you know with the snow sometimes it's dark, it feels dark and cloudy outside. But I take advantage of that now. I've actually been considering for probably six months now about doing a darkness retreat because it's been it's been calling to me off and on just to go literally, I and I have actually tried it's gonna sound weird. I've tried sitting in my closet with an IMS gone like but I'm like in my home right so it's easy to think oh you know I could go get distracted and do this and that but I've been thinking about doing a darkness retreat because I think I don't have any fear of it anymore. I think it would be absolutely beautiful to sit just sit alone and the darkness for you know three to five days. I don't know that that's for everybody. But yeah, I definitely have a different view of of darkness myself but listening to us just absolutely. is so beautiful. I love the way you speak. Well, thank you and you know No, it would never sound weird to me don't want to do a darkness retreat even in one's own closet. We have less access to pure darkness than our ancestors did. We're experiencing the over lighting of planet Earth right now with 60% of planet Earth. And 9% of US and Europe artificially lit at night. So the call to find sacred dark places but call to as you're saying In turn within more recognize winter as an opportunity to give more time and respect to the interior world, I believe our world at large would be a much more peaceful place if more and more people embrace that approach. And let's acknowledge that our time here is short. Even if we live to be 100 years old. It's a short life. So why not learn to recognize the sacred in all of it? The winter as much as the summer and the metaphorical winter? So yeah, I really, I think, while the pandemic carried great trauma and loss and tragedy, and challenge for many, for some, it also gave and provided a unexpected opportunity to stay at home more and to turn to the interior world a bit more. So there's certainly more recognition in our world for the value of that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, what I love? Is that you. You call it divine darkness, divine darkness. I don't think most people would consider darkness being divine. But it really is. Yes, yes. And I offer a number of meditations and practices and inquiries in the book, so that you're not just reading and consuming the book. But going through a journey and learning to just through meditations and perhaps time we spend under the night sky, open up to the presence of the Divine darkness lose our fear, of not being able to see our way through through the visual field and a sense of familiarity, but instead to live in much more of a compassionate and irreverent dance with the mystery. Because we're human. And so no matter who we are, life is full of the unknown. And also, no matter who we are, we're facing a collective uncertainty now so yes, the divine darkness. I love that phrase that points us to Oh, ha, same as luminous darkness. Darkness isn't what I've been taught to think. Yeah, what is the luminous Divine Words that most people yeah, definitely want us to describe darkness. But if you think about it, and allow it to soak it, you know, it just changes our perception, which I think is beautiful. And I love the in your book. You off you offer at the end of the chapters, that mindful inquiry, and then the exponential, like the practice, right, and that you offer that so it gives, so individuals can reflect Yeah, I think that's beautiful. Um, yeah, have a have a chapter. I'm trying to find it because I didn't mark it off on let me find it. Was thinking about dreams. China trying to I can't remember the chapter name I'm trying to flip through. See, I didn't I made one note. Yeah. Let's see if it. Oh, where's the chapter? You know what, you know what, you know where it's at? Oh, there it is. It was in between because you've got you know, some of them marked in the in the darker pages. But it's chapter nine, right dreams, possibility and moral imagination, the role of the invisible realm and awakening, which I love that you talk about this because I talk about dreams and stuff a lot on my channel on my blog and everything because I've had so many, like mystical experiences and in the dream state, and for me, the dream state is just as real as this third dimensional reality really be there's so much happening. So much learning and the dream state there are patterns in the dream state. So I love that you. I love that you included this. Is there anything that you would like to say, on this particular chapter of the book? Sure. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, I really enjoyed writing that chapter. And dream work is a rich part of my practice. And I'll say that my grandmother first taught me to use dreaming as a spiritual practice. So it's been something that's been with me for a long, long time. But in Buddhist philosophy, it's it's understood that all of life is a dream, in a sense whether we are waking or sleeping. In other words, it is Maya, illusion, just a dream. And so, Buddhist philosophy points to the limited kind of purely mental and physical reality in which our everyday consciousness has become entangled. Many of us were taught that what we see is reality. This was in fact, not true. My avails are true, unified self. So meditation helps us to recognize the illusory nature of reality or the dreaming nature of existence. Within every field, we visually see that appears to be real and set in stone, there also exists limited, limitless possibility. And so darkness is that field of unformed possibility before we choose a limited form, and just so we're not getting too esoteric, you know, just for really practical example, when we meditate, and we notice, oh, the nature of my busy mind and mind habits has been revealed to me, Oh, the habit of falling into a few favorite emotions of suffering. And the momentum these emotions have, it's being revealed to me. And at the same time, we recognize, oh, there's also just the larger field of awareness itself, I can through recognizing awareness itself and myself as not these emotions, not my body, not my mind, I recognize that I have a choice that every moment that again, it's not fixed and set in stone. So this is important to say. And, you know, one more thing about dreams sometimes, you know, people will categorize or judge topics such as dreaming as woowoo, or out there or separate from the more grounded work. And I remind people that, you know, we are unconsciously using our imaginations all the time. What I mean by that is, many people are imagining what stirs fear, they're imagining stories that feed their anxiety, they're imagining separation, rather than the absolute truth of interconnection. And so through meditation, it's very helpful and practical, that we can learn to consciously use our imaginations on behalf of life, rather than staying asleep to this unconscious. Imagination, that speeding suffering. So that makes some sense. Absolutely. In your talking, I think luminous darkness, right? Because you're I mean, it really. It really illuminate like, the darkness really shows us so much. Right? Yeah. Yeah, so it makes perfect sense. I yeah, I meditation is. I used to have a hard time meditating. You know, what, probably a couple years ago. And now. It's, I mean, I love it. I love the dream state, even though sometimes you don't get much sleep, because I learned. Yeah, I learned so much from it. So, again, you're like, I'm just fascinated at how eloquently you were able to describe the darkness and how it can be so healing, and it can teach us so much and how important it is to really, essentially change our perception of it. Yes, yeah. So just one more thing I'd love to emphasize about that, you know, for everyone listening, we can see both in the collective field the really harmful effects of judging light as superior to dark effects that range from xenophobia and racism, to judging or even hating parts of ourselves or certain emotions, to it goes on and on and on. And the I believe part of the healing needed in today's world is really remembering the steadfast compassion. That is who we are, and being willing to get a little uncomfortable to turn towards those things we've judged internally and externally, to turn towards going back to this phrase, rather than a way, what we've labeled dark in order to remember that, who and what we actually are is, is love. And it's not a love that has that finds more value in one half of nature. It finds equal value in all of nature and consciousness, the full spectrum and we become so much fear, we become so much we experienced so much of what I spoke of earlier as our innate sense of belonging, we become so much more relaxed and kind and courageous, when we're willing to start welcoming in what we've labeled dark as well. Yeah, and spending more time with the divine darkness. It puts us in touch with our, our inner radiance. Very, very simple. Yeah. It's, you know, what? It takes us back, it really helps to take us back to the beginning, like you said, right? Of who? of who and what we are, right, which is, is love. Right? Um, so yeah, so the dark Yeah, the darkness is powerful. It really does. Like before all of the conditioning, right? Because so we're, we're so conditioned, growing up, you know, but the systems and stuff put in place that essentially, I don't want to get too out there either, and conspiracies and things like that are too esoteric with things. But there are a lot of things in place that really are the catalysts for us, essentially forgetting who we are. That darkness and meditation and even in the dream state, right. The phrases I always love, yeah, then Buddhism is return to source, a practice of returning the source and just recognizing and everyone listening can recognize both the busyness and drama of perhaps your own mind, the society we're immersed in right now of politics and human conflicts and capitalism. It's so busy, and choosing instead to return to source to anchor in our source connection. Yeah, to simplify to that degree, so we can see clearly and also be of service here. Yeah, yeah. So I really appreciated the the many topics we've gotten to touch on in me too. And again, I literally, well, I mean, my perception on the darkness have changed anyway, right? For me going from that fear state. And the and just all the trauma and stuff that I went through, and then really kind of facing the darkness, essentially, right, and then being able to not be afraid of it anymore. And now, I find it to be such a beautiful thing. And I realized that was such a healing process. So so this, I mean, I, I know, I'm stubborn, but I cannot express to you how much this book resonated with me. It's so beautiful. So, um, yeah. And as again, as I mentioned earlier, I had purchased your other two books, relational mindfulness, and the natural kitchen. So I'm hoping that once those have come in, and I'm, I've read through those that we can set up additional to have you on again, and then discuss those books, as well. I would love to do that. Well, they're both really rich topics, and it would be deeply enjoyable. So yeah, we'll see for listeners to stay tuned. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Alright, so um, is there anything else that you want to talk about before we kind of end this? In this episode? I would just love listeners to know that if the book moves and touches you, you're welcome to consider joining an offering to go deeper. So I have a weekly meditation group and a monthly luminous darkness gathering that starts in 2023. All kinds of retreats around the topic of luminous darkness, and it's really rewarding to give oneself Putting the work to the practices. So deeply enjoyable. So people know where to find me and my website, Deborah eat until.com. And I always appreciate people are touched by the book, what it does, how much it helps an author when someone leaves a positive review, like on Amazon or whatnot. So I'll give a shout out for that. And I just want to thank you for your generosity and in having me and sharing from your own life experience as well. Thank you, it was such a pleasure again, it just got into the book. And it just resonated so deeply. And I was like, Yeah, I know, many of my, so many of my listeners are, you know, I'm different. We're all at different points on the journey. So even some of the the individuals I coach really, I think could definitely benefit from reading this book. So and I'm having you on today, it has inspired me to purchase a couple, a couple of copies of copies and then offer those to the individuals I think that would really benefit. So I'm excited to do that now. No. All right. So, um, I think that is it for today's episode. Thank you so much for just coming on and sharing your bit about your life and your journey and what you teach and just sharing about the book. It was absolutely beautiful, and I really appreciate that. You're so welcome. Thank you, everyone for listening. Take good care. All right. Thank you. Bye